E4P: Interview with an Episcopal Priest, a Methodist Pastor, and a Southern Baptist Pastor

All the information presented is solely from what was told to me from the priest or pastor.  None of it is from outside sources. 

EPISCOPALIAN

INTRO: “The Episcopal church stems from the Anglican church.  The Anglican church separated because of one big issue: the authority of the pope.  The Anglicans wanted to be able to decide on what they believe and didn’t believe that only one man had access to hearing from God.  When the colonies first separated from England, they wanted a new church that wasn’t the “Church of England”.  So they founded the Episcopal Church which has the same beliefs and practices as the Anglican church, except for one difference.  Democracy.  As the Continental Congress formed, so did the Episcopal church.  1776 was the birth of the Episcopal church and from then on, church members, priests, bishops all come together and vote on their platforms, doctrine, worship, life, etc.  There is shared power.  There is a hierarchy of authority and power, but the decision making comes from the people up.  This can be MESSY!  Many people deciding at once leads to arguments.  Our followers are mix between theological liberals and theological conservatives.  They would not agree with everything I say.  But that’s just a testimony to varying beliefs in the Episcopal church.” – Rev. Hehr

1) How does one attain salvation?

A) Begins with a decision to follow Jesus, then getting baptized.  Baptism forms a covenantal agreement involved in the church – receiving sacraments, supporting the church (financial and servanthood), community life.

2) Are spiritual gifts for today?  Specifically the supernatural – are miracles, prophecies, signs real?

A) Yes, God’s miraculous happens all the time!  People just need eyes to see and ears to hear

3) I don’t know anything about your congregation, but nationally Episcopalians seem most often to be Democrats – is this assumption true and if so, why do you think this is?

A) No.  In fact St. John’s [his church] is mostly Republican.  It really depends on the community if the church is mostly Republican or Democrat, not on the denomination.

4) Is homosexuality a sin?

A) In the Episcopal faith we believe that all understanding comes from three pegs.  Think of it as a stool.  The three legs keep it balanced and standing.  These three pegs are SCRIPTURE, REASON, and TRADITION.  Because of this, I have to look at things through all three lenses.  This causes me to look at scripture holistically, not just taking one.  In 21^st century thinking there is science and a great deal of study about genetics.  Homosexuality is understood greatly different today than from centuries before.  Being an Episcopalian, that matters to me.  Scripture and reason go together.   We are created in the image of God.  If that’s true, all human beings are created in the image of God.  If human beings male and female are created in the image of God, then why would one say that a heterosexual is created in the image of God but a homosexual isn’t?  That’s where Episcopalians begin to use all three lenses to understand.  As a priest, as a follower of Jesus Christ, I have no trouble arriving at that point.  That the image of God is present in a homosexual and a heterosexual.  I have no reason to believe that homosexuality is not part of God’s created order.  You can sin in your homosexuality – adultery, lust, etc.  But homosexuality in itself is not the sin.  I believe it expresses the diversity of creation…….Yes, I believe that homosexuality is part of the created order.

5) Preach the gospel at always and if necessary use words – what are your thoughts on this statement?

A) GREAT statement!  I believe in this truth, that how we live our life is more powerful than a sermon.

6) Is Jesus the way the truth and the life (John 14:6) and the only way to God?  In other words, is Jesus the only way to God and is he the only way to heaven?

A) First of all, let’s talk about heaven.  What is your understanding of heaven? ……….. My understanding of heaven is that it is not a place, but a spiritual union with God.  Other religions can tell us a great deal about God – his holiness for instance.  Jesus is the fullness of that, but he can make himself for other people who aren’t necessarily part of the Christian tradition.  Jesus is a guaranteed way of entrance to heaven, but his mercy goes beyond our understanding.  I can’t put him in a box and say he won’t save a Hindu, a Jew, a Muslim, an unbeliever individually who have never heard him before because they followed him the best they knew.

Other quotes:

• Satan is evil personified,
• Catachism is our collection of teaching
• Reason, scripture, tradition are of equal importance.  Episcopalians are interested in how they interact

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METHODIST

1) What does the symbol mean?

        The cross represents Christ.  The outward flame shows the Holy Spirit in us and us taking him OUT into the world.

2) Is the bible the inerrant word of God, or can we pick and choose what we like to believe?

        All of the Bible is truth, not just some of it, but all of it.  But the Bible takes in many different viewpoints.  For example, in Romans Paul says that women shouldn’t speak in the church.  But I also see first and foremost that there is “neither man nor woman, nor Jew nor Greek…”.  Second, I see Deborah in the Old Testament, prophetesses in Acts, women leading the church in the various letters.  All these women had to SPEAK in order to prophesy or lead or preach or whatever it was God gifted them to do.  Some say that the ‘no women speaking’ viewpoint Paul had was actually to make Romans feel more welcome because they were very against women speaking in public.  This really shows that God will go to any length to reach out to us. 

        Again the Bible is the inerrant word of God, but we must take the WHOLE bible into context not just pick and choose.  Methodists use the Wesleyan model of understanding to really make good decisions about doctrine, life decisions, etc.  It is often called the ‘three legged stool’. 

        I interrupt, “Oh yes an Episcopal showed me this.  He said that Reason, Scripture, and tradition must be balanced.” 

        Pastor says “Oh no.  He totally got that wrong.  Episcopals actually took from the Wesleyan model of understanding because we came before.  But I’m not sure why he said that.  Scripture can’t be balanced nor trumped by reason or tradition..

        The three legged stool has three pegs – Reason, Experience, and Tradition and they are limited tools that help balance our seat which is the ultimate authority – Scripture.  Scripture is the most important, the primary.

3) Your faith was founded on the 1st Great Awakening, a time of great signs and wonders, powerful gospel proclamation, mass healings and spiritual manifestation, and a beautiful grace message.  I myself am a “Circuit Rider”, a modern day mobile revivalist who, like the circuit riders during John Wesley, John Edwards  and George Whitefield’s day, have chosen to go to the hardest and darkest places and bring the gospel to the unreached and revive the saved.  I am under the impression that signs and wonders were a common part of this revival and God revealing himself to man.  Do you, your congregation, and the Methodist Church as a whole still to this day value the physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit, healings, or powerful gospel proclamation to the unreached as your denomination’s founders did?

Our denomination is so diverse, it spreads around the world.  Overseas we see a lot more spiritual manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the church and during worship.  Not as much in the states.  But here, we still do tons of miraculous healing services. In the Methodist Church, oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit’s presence.  So we anoint people with oil for healing.  As for powerful gospel proclamation, there isn’t a lot of yelling in the US Methodist churches.  Typically my sermon would be about the same level as I am talking to you right now.  But sharing the gospel in itself?  Absolutely.  In fact that is such a firm tenant of our faith we have hours and hours of missions and ministry shown by a jar of beads.  Every hour someone spends ministering to someone or serving the community they drop a bead in.  This jar is FULL of beads.  This is just for our church here, but again it shows how important serving the community and sharing Christ is to the Methodist church as a whole.

4) “Preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use words.”  What do you think about this statement?

I would flip it around!  Preach the gospel at all times and use action.  Preaching uses words!  “How will they know if no one has told them?” it says in scripture.  There are tons of good people out there serving the poor who aren’t Christian.  What we have is something different, eternal.  If they’re not doing it in the name of Jesus, how will they know about Christ?  My favorite way to do this is whenever we serve the thousands of people we do outreach to, we simply tell them why we are doing this – in the name of Jesus.

Other quotes:

• A lot of people think they are Christians but aren’t.  It’s the grace of God, but it’s also a response to it.
• To say once you finish confirmation class you are a believer is coming short.
• Baptism – an outward sealing for an inward experience that already happened.  Without the inward, it’s nothing
• Infant baptism – more to dedicate parenthood of the child than ‘securing salvation’.  The child MUST have an inward experience at some point.
• Salvation – you must have an inward experience.
• The Methodist Church encourages people to serve to local community
• Rules and regulations can be a good thing, but it can also be binding.
• Church splits – God can use our brokenness for good
• Homosexuals invited to the church, but not to be ordained as priests – No sin is greater, all sin is the same.  there are certain sins that are so binding that you can’t fully serve God in them.  I am not the greatest at loving others, but I can still fully serve God in that weakness.  However, I can’t fully serve God living in adultery or addicted to drugs, etc.
• Testimonial: Once, during a discipleship bible study (where you study the whole bible through), a lesbian couple read the scriptures and ended up splitting up and marrying men, spouses of the opposite sex!  If we didn’t invite homosexuals to our church and love on them and let them walk the walk they need to walk, then they would have never had that transformative experience of renouncing homosexuality and living in freedom!
• Enthusiasm – literally means to be filled with the Holy Spirit (coming from the Greek ‘thus’)

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SOUTHERN BAPTIST

INTRO: “Salvation depends on us asking him into our heart.  We can’t be saved by good works, bible knowledge, religion.  We must turn from our sins and ask Jesus into our heart!” – Pastor Bill

1) Are all Baptists Calvinist?

No.  I’m not.  Calvinist believe you don’t have a choice, but the Bible clearly says you do. 

2) Are spiritual gifts for today?  Including the supernatural gifts – prophecy, speaking in tongues, apostleship, words of knowledge, healing, and supernatural encouragement?

Absolutely.  Scripture clearly points to these gifts as legitimate and useful to the church.  Word of knowledge – absolutely!  (shares a first hand story).  Faith healing and miracles – so real!  My mom got prayed over once when she had a visible tumor and it vanished!   Speaking in tongues is a gift to.  Now do I speak it?  No.  Does that make me an unbeliever?  No.  Speaking in tongues is a gift.  It is not necessarily better than all the other gifts.  In other words it doesn’t make or break your salvation.  But it happens! Encouragement is actually my spiritual gifting.

        Me: I know!  Yesterday you prayed for me and I felt so supernaturually encouraged.  It was like the Holy Spirit was speaking directly to my heart, all the things I needed to hear.  I felt the presence of the Lord on your prayer for me.

        Pastor: That is so good to hear!  What a blessing to hear!  Praise God.  It’s all Him, you know.

Other quotes:

• Standing on a mountain top with my bud in the middle of Africa as we prayed for that village, we felt the Shekinah glory!  It fell on us and we just started praising the Lord!
• God is saying “My Word is a love letter, not a text book”
• The Bible keeps you from sin or sin keeps you from the Bible
• Oftentimes we talk to God but never listen
• In heaven, Christ isn’t going to ask “Are you Presbyterian?  Are you Assembly of God?  Are you Methodist?”  He’s going to ask “Do you KNOW me?”
• What happens with legalism is it becomes binding not freeing
• I tell my youth to Pray, Pursue, and Persuade.  1) Pray for the person who doesn’t know Christ.  2) Pursue them in love and conversation and action.  3) Persuade them by preaching the gospel and showing them who Christ is
• Katrina, I want you to write this on top of a paper:

• I AM A MISSIONARY. 

Now write underneath it:

• A missionary is not one that crosses the sea, but one that sees the cross

E4P Update 2: 8/22

CAN I JUST SAY


Two of the best conversations of this entire year just happened with a Methodist pastor and a Southern Baptist pastor just today and yesterday.  They are the freakin bomb. full of Jesus and Holy Spirit and love and encouragement.  and I am getting blown away!  Like, literally ON FIRE.  Will have to share everything soon. [ Putting their recorded answers together. ]


* This is a response to E4P: http://pathsstraight.blogspot.com/2012/07/ephesians-4-project.html *

E4P update

Response to: http://pathsstraight.blogspot.com/2012/07/ephesians-4-project.html

8/20

 It’s been 18 days since my first interview.  It was with a kind, understanding Episcopal priest who had some theology that definitely strayed from the inerrancy of scripture (i.e. homosexuality is not in itself a sin, heaven in just a spiritual union not a real place, salvation entails both faith in Christ & works – sacraments, good works)**.  However, I will applaud him for this: all he knew when I called was that I wanted to learn more about the Episcopal faith.  That’s all I said over the phone.  And in just that he said “Absolutely!”  He warmly invited me into his church and told me all about being an Episcopalian.  He was so hospitable, understanding and ready to answer any of my questions.  I thought this was a norm.  I thought all priests and pastors were excited to hear that someone actually WANTS them to share their faith with them.  It’s an open invitation: TELL ME! 

However I found after calling over fifteen churches that it is not the norm.  Far from it.  I simply would ask churches “I would like to more about the ___ faith and wanted to come in to talk to someone.” Every church a) blew me off, b) told me they would call me back and never did, or c) one church even told me that I had to come to a service FIRST and THEN ask questions.  When I told her that was impossible because I was leaving soon, she said sorry can’t help ya.  What is this arrogancy?  What is this unwelcomeness?  Lack of desire to share one’s faith?  Not once did I ever say I was doing a project or an interview, but that I simply wanted to personally learn more.  That should be enough. 

So even though the Episcopal priest had really questionable ideas to say the least, he agreed to speak with me.  Just like that.  We can really learn something from them (Episcopalians):  Welcome seekers.  Be ready in and out of season as Paul says.  Don’t immediately think the worst in someone, but be understanding.  And most importantly, it’s GOOD NEWS so we should want to share it!

Disappointed but still full of faith and encouragement,

Katrina Doyle

P.S. Will be posting the deets of the interview soon.  First I want to collect more answers from other denominations and put it all on one document.

** One of the main tenants of Escopalianism that was explained to me is that reason opens a lot to debate.  Many if not most Episcopalians do not agree with everything the priest said, especially those that I mentioned.  They would have a more conservative view.  So don’t overgeneralize like was tempted to do!

Summer Closing Up

As the summer closes up, I wanted to reflect on the assignments/projects I completed.  One was my internship at Florida Coalition Against Human Trafficking.  Today was my last day, and I have to say that I will definitely miss working in that office.  I worked alongside the most knowledgeable and dynamic peple I could ask for.  They patiently taught me everything they knew about trafficking, the laws, the effects, the symptoms, the causes, the stories.  I felt as though I took a college course on Human Trafficking simply because of the amount of knowledge I acquired from serving there.  FCAHT really taught me servanthood.  How sacrificial love is played out in our society, and our role as believers in accomplishing God's work on the earth even when you don't feel like it.  I will forever have a trauma-informed perspective, meaning that I don't immediately judge people because of the way they act, rather I ask the question "What happened to you?"  More often than not, angry/hurt people have been abused.  This kind of victim-centered aproach which I learned from the Crisis Center screams JESUS.  Jesus looked at the sinners and invited them into his love.  He is patient, kind, compassionate and never accusing anyone.  For Satan is the accuser.
The second project I had a leadership role in was Kneel United.  Kneel United was a united prayer concert in which thousands of youth came to the Sun Dome to pray for our city and our country.  Christians of all shapes and sizes, denominations as diverse as butterflies, all coming together for one banner - Christ.  It was all because of a vision the Lord gave to a young kid named Jake Kennedy, a few months ago.  A picture of thousands of youth kneeling at the sun dome sparking a citywide and nationwide revival told his spiritman - I need to do this!  He immediately started acting in radical faith, calling everyone he knew, convincing his parents through scripture, getting people on board.  I was one of those touched by Jake's vision and partnered with him this summer in seeing that vision through.  On August 18th, this past Saturday, thousands of people came to hear community leaders and youth pray on stage while worshipping with local worship teams and famous artists - Becka Shae and Luminate.  When I prayed, fire came out of my mouth.  I let the Holy Spirit take control and just started declaring freedom over the whole city.  It was an incredible experience.  To me, the best part of the entire experience wasn't the planning, the worship, the prayer, but the three people who stood up in the middle of the arena in front of thousands and gave their lives to Christ.  That is what it came down to.  Three people coming to life.  And this was just the first Kneel United.  I believe we're going to see this for years and years to come.

The third is the Ephesians 4 Project.  Something I came up with that has a lot to do with unity in the church as well.  In fact, that is the heart behind it.  The mission is to gain understanding and love for our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ by hearing from their perspective why they believe what they believe.  My recent post explaining E4P can be found here.  With my last day at FCAHT and occurance of Kneel United, I have finally have time to devote to E4P.  Stay tuned!

The most important thing that happened this summer to me was Circuit Riders.  In it, I broke free from the spirit of criticism, pride, fear, shame, unbelief (was the biggest), and many other strongholds in my life that held me back from knowing the truth.  I was prophesied over so many times that each day I would be like "I don't need any more prayer", but I would get prayed for anyway and get more and more and more and more free.   And every time was so spot on that within seconds of someone laying hands on me I would burst into tears and/or laugh uncontrollably simply because it was God speaking to me directly - exactly what my heart needed to hear from him.  Things I didn't even realize I needed to hear, but God would pull something from the wounds in my heart and bring up old hurts/abuses that I tried to cover up myself.  God wanted those hurts to heal himself.  There was so much letting go, so much surrender at Circuit Riders that I felt and feel like a completely new person.  And for the first time, all I want to do is preach the gospel.  I've been doing street evangelism here in Tampa with my good friends, just preaching the good news!  It's the most important thing we can do aside from knowing God, to lead others to him!  I will never again doubt my ability to evangelize. I will never again doubt my calling.   I will never again doubt God's love for me.   I will never again doubt his power.  I wll never again doubt HIM.

JESUS!

Exploding with PRAISE!

Oh my gosh oh my gosh OMGOSH!  I just spent the most incredible night ever literally BEING the church with a bunch of wild-eyed believers.  And then...I can't even believe what just happened! 

So first of all, Joel, Matt, Briana, Daniel, and I lead worship for Oasis Church and all of us are literally exploding with praise.  We all get rocked by Jesus.  No one left that building without encountering the Lord!  Then after getting filled up at Oasis Church, worshipping our hearts out and receiving prophecy and scriptures, we (me, my friends, and a few more I met tonight) went to IHOP (Pancakes) to eat late dinner/breakfast.  All of us come from different churches and denominations but we all love Jesus and we love each other.  It was incredible unity to watch, just a bunch of Jesus-lovers not really caring about what organization we were in but just how God has been at work in our lives lately.  Even people I had never even met before I now got to know and fell in love with them!  Such unity, such love in the body of Christ.  How it SHOULD BE.

So we get our table at IHOP and after conversing with our waiter Paul* for a bit, we find out it is his birthday and he hasn't seen his kids all day and he has had a long long day.  He shows us his little wallet pictures and I see how much he adores them.  So upon hearing that it's his big day, we sing him Happy Birthday and get the whole restaurant involved.  He later tells Joel in a quiet voice "Thank you SO much for being nice to me.  I've had a really hard day."  But we weren't done blessing him.  We engage him and his server friend Joe* in conversation, laughing and laughing just having an amazing really great time being connected. Then in response to a story Joe tells us about singing to his patrons, we decide to sing to HIM.  So all 10-15 of us start singing beloved songs like "Eye of the Tiger", "In the Jungle", "Three Little Birds", and "Don't Worry".  The entire restaurant joins in and is super happy and we are all having an amazing time.  We get all sorts of requests and a guy even gave us a tip!  Well as for our server Paul* and his birthday, we left that man some uncharted tip of 200+% just dropping 20 dollar bombs all over the place.   He was BLESSED.  Then we asked him if we could pray for him.  He told us that he actually just within the last 9 weeks has been exiting his drug and alcohol lifestyle and completely finding Christ at a Methodist Church, as are his kids.  We start praising God and praying and proclaiming freedom in his life, thanking God for the work he has done in this man.  And we just pray for continued blessing and for God to bring to completion the good that he has done. C'MON!  So good!  God totally set it up for this awesome man to be encouraged!!!

Then before we leave, Joe* has one last request.  He asks us to sing "My Redeemer Lives", a song his mom used to sing to him all the time.  Joel leads us in song and we joyfully and worshipfully praise the Lord at the top of our lungs in the middle of an International House of Pancakes!  Then the manager comes over and says "You guys can't do church here."  And everyone leaves except me and Naraly.  We stay behind to exchange numbers with Joe* and Paul*.  I asked Joe* about his mom because I had a feeling that she passed away, and she did.  I hug Paul and Joe goodbye and go outisde with Naraly.  We all get together and praise God and hold hands to pray.  Then all of a sudden I see JOE* walking over.  He asks us to pray for him, for financial peace and guidance.  And we lift him up in prayer, speaking scripture and encouragement over him.  He just gets BLOWN UP!  He decides he wants to find a church.  It's been tough since his mom died, and a lot of people in his old church judged him for certain things(so not the heart of Jesus to condemn - ugh!), but he is finally ready now to plug in with other believers!!!  YES!  And then we just keep encouraging each other and the night never ends! 

Let's see, what what miraculous about tonight.

1) Unity in the Body of Christ manifested
2) Worship and prayer and happy goodness in the middle of an IHOP
3) Laying hands on and Encouraging an ex-drug/alcohol addict to keep following Christ and recieving his identity, blessing, and inheritence - and hearing about his entire family coming to Christ through him!
4) Laying hands on and encouraging a young man who has still been greiving the loss of his mother, but from his encounter with us tonight is making the decision to go back to the Church!


COME ON!  This should not be a suprise.  This should be a nightly occurance.  We get filled up and wherever we go just explode people with Jesus.  Let's be MOBILE EVANGELISTS.  Let's be REVIVALISTS.  Let's be ON FIRE and READY.  Let's be RADICAL LOVERS!  Selah.


Thank you Jesus for tonight!  Amen
- Katrina Doyle





*Paul and Joe are pseudoynms to replace their real names, out of respect for their personal testimonies so that they remain anonymous

Peace, Love, and Justice

"When we go school supply shopping, can I get binders that make me happy?  Like ones with little flowers on them?" I begged.  My mom replied with a smirk, "Like Peace, Love, and Justice?"  I raised my eyebrow in confusion.  She expanded, "I know what you meant.  It made me think of Peace, Love, and Jusice - the things that are important to you."

I thought about it and it's true.  I wanted to brush it off at first.  I don't want to be the stereotypical hippie so I try and pretend that I'm not some Kumbaya Warlord.  I always feel like I have to break the mold of what people think I am.  But when it comes down to it - yeah.  I love Peace, Love, and Justice. 

This statement came after a conversation that we had earlier.  We were talking about civil liberties - specifically freedom of speech and freedom of religion.  We talked about discrimination and laws that give special rights to minority groups.  We talked about Chick Fil A day and compared it to the mosque at Ground Zero.  We talked about the difference between Muslims and radical terrorists.  We talked about how trafficking doesn't discriminate by race.  And then, let's just say it ended with a slight disagreement.  I felt like my mom was being really ignorant and injust about having what was in my eyes a bigoted misconception, and she just wouldn't listen to reason.  However after the conversation, I felt like a complete douche.  I felt like I was one of those people who have to go around trying to enlighten everyone.  Specifically, I felt like your stereotypical panties-in-a-wad liberal who thinks you're a horrible decrepid hell-dweller if you don't think the same way.  So mom, I'm sorry. 

Then it made me think.  Can I ever learn to divorce self-righteousness with fighting for justice?  Can I do it in a way that is inviting for both those who agree and disagree?  I have come to the conclusion that only if I allow Love into the equation of Justice can I have Peace. And the source of all Love is God.  So looking to Him I can see what it means to be Just and Loving, the Prince of Peace.   No more wagging my finger at the public like some grumpy old nanny.  It's time to be like Christ.